Posts by Blue Grass

41

John 20:28 response to Garyneal

by Blue Grass in

(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).

(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).

everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.

Blue Grass

Mary says "What is that based on? The nominative of address could be either articular or anarthrous."

That's based on the fact that EVERY time Jesus is addressed as Lord in the New Testament it's in the Vocative case and never in the Nominative case.

Mark 15:34 (compare the parallel in Matthew 27:46 where the vocative is used

This one boils down to interpretation. Mark viewed Jesus words as a quotation of Psalms while Matthew view it as Jesus actually talking to God. Grammatically speaking they are both correct depending on whether Jesus was quoting or not.

Luke 8:54, John 19:3, Ephesians 5:22, Revelation 4:11, 15:2

I fail to see your point in the first 3 verses. Can you be more specific as what you want me to look at in those verses because I didn't see anything unusual. Concerning Revelation you know that book in written in poor Greek with many grammatical errors so it really doesn't make sense for us to use that book as a model when it contains errors.

How can you say that? Did you even read the passage?

Grammar, grammar, grammar. This is simple stuff. You learned it at school, years ago. You can't invent your own rules of grammar to suit your own beliefs every time you come across a Bible passage that disagrees with them.

If you think the grammar supports the notion that Thomas wasn't talking to anyone, please demonstrate how that is the case. Don't just make a statement that breaks the rules of grammar and expect us all to believe it.

Did you even read my opening post? Are you not aware that we're not using the rules of English as the passage was not written in English?

Ah, because what you forgot to mention is that the nominative was frequently used for direct address (Nominative of Address), indeed more frequently than the vocative (almost 600 times in the NT, twice as many as vocatives) which makes your post largely beside the point.

I've never heard such a claim, can you please give some examples. For the record I didn't see a Nominative acting as Vocative in any of the New Testament verses you posted minus the quotation in Mark.

114

Immortal Soul? Impossible!

by wannabe in

impossible!.

we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.

the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.

Blue Grass

He's just one of many Jew haters that like to blow hard from behind a computer screen. Everytime he opens his mouth he shows off his ignorance

.

My ignorance? I haven't said anything concerning ashkenazis that isn't true. I don't hate Jews, I hate the ashkenazis from European.

Will you please stop? Pretty please, with sugar on top. I would really appreciate it.

LWT the fact that you had to go way back to my first thread may indicate that i don't attack people as much as you make it seem, also I don't know if you noticed but Robdar was the one who called me a "dumbass" despite the fact that I haven't and call her any names.

41

John 20:28 response to Garyneal

by Blue Grass in

(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).

(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).

everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.

Blue Grass

Jonathan the link you posted isn't really an appropriate response to my opening post as it doesn't speak of what John 20:28 says in the original Greek text which is what I based my entire post on.

41

John 20:28 response to Garyneal

by Blue Grass in

(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).

(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).

everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.

Blue Grass

According to that, Thomas wasn't addressing Lord Jesus, but Lord Jehovah. Did I understand it correctly?

No Thomas isn't addressing anyone in this verse. By saying "my Lord and my God" Thomas is now acknowledging after his previous disbelief that his Lord Jesus has been resurrected by his God. Before seeing Jesus Thomas didn't believe his Lord was alive but when he finally sees him alive he acknowledges him and he acknowledges the power of God with the phrase "my Lord and my God".

114

Immortal Soul? Impossible!

by wannabe in

impossible!.

we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.

the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.

Blue Grass

My darling Blue Grass dumbass, you do not know anything regarding ashkenazi or sephardic.

I know all about ashkenazi and sephardic Jews. I know that vast majority of Jews living in Palestine Israel are fake ashkenazis and that Jews who died in the holocaust were fake ashkenazi Jews. Also the Bible itself puts to rest the myth of ashkenazi having any relation to Jews in the Bible:

Genesis 10:2The sons of Japheth:Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras.3The sons of Gomer:Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.

As we all know the Jews came from Shem through Abraham and Jacob. Ashkenazis come from Japheth through Gomer. Two totally different groups of people and nations. You ashkenazis come from Japheth, the man who fathered all the European nations. There's nothing semitic(Shem) about ashkenzais.

114

Immortal Soul? Impossible!

by wannabe in

impossible!.

we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.

the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.

Blue Grass

All that matters to me is I have a certificate signed by 3 rabbis stating for the entire world that I am Jewish; I am entitled for citizenship in Israel if I want it;

Sorry Robdar, but having three Europeans with no connection to the Middle East giving you a piece of paper saying your a Jew means nothing. Also you can go live in Palestine Israel not because of that piece of paper but because a bunch of Euros from Germany, Austria, Poland, the Baltic, Hungary, Ukraine, Romania, Russia, etc. came to the middle east and killed a bunch of Innocent people and literally stole there homes. That's why you can go live in Palestine Israel.

So Blue Grass-----do you have a rebuttal for any of the scriptures we've presented to you?

Actually I haven't seen many post that was worth responding to as most of what you guys post needs no rebuttal. But concerning Heb 4:12 the soul is the body and the spirit is what gives it life. I see no contradiction there. I'm not saying people don't have spirits, I'm saying our spirits aren't conscious or immortal.

P.S Thanks snowbird!

41

John 20:28 response to Garyneal

by Blue Grass in

(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).

(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).

everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.

Blue Grass

This thread is a response to a comment garyneal made on another thread in which he said:

"Ask them to explain John 20:28, 'Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"' I would be real interested in what their response is.You see, in the Greek the text is definitive and is totally unanswerable. This is because the word theos is preceded by the definite article ho where Thomas says THE GOD OF ME to Jesus. The literal translation is, "The Lord of me and the God of me." "

I started to respond on the thread this comment was originally made but I didn't want to hijack that thread and I feel this topic deserves it's own thread.

In a nutshell Greek has four cases when it comes to nouns:Nominative, Genitive, Accusative, and Vocative.The Nominative case marks the subject of a verb(a noun performing an action), the Genitive case marks a noun as being the possessor of another noun(i.e The man's hat.), the accusative marks the object of the verb(a noun affected by a verb), and the Vocative case is used when a noun is being directly addressed. Here some examples of these cases in English:

Nominative:The girl baked a cake. (Here girl is the nominative because she performs the act of baking)

The dog barked at the cat. (Here the dog is the one barking.)

Genitive:Have you ever been to Dave's house? (Dave owns the house.)

Have you seen John's new car?(John owns the car)

Accusative:The girl baked a cake.(The cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.)

The dog barked at the cat.(The cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.)

Vocative:Hey Mike! Where are you going?(Mike is being directly addressed.)

Nice to see you again Bob.(Bob is being directly addressed.)

In Greek a masculine noun such as Κυριος (Lord) is spelled differently in each of the 4 cases and the definite article(Ο) is different in the first 3 cases while no definite article is used for the Vocative:

Nominative: Ο Κυριος

Genitive: Του Κυριου

Accusative: Τον Κυριο

Vocative: Κυριε

Now let's take a look at John 20:28 in the Greek text:

28 και απεκριθη Θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο Κυριος μου και ο Θεος μου.

As you can see both Κυριος(Lord) and Θεος(God) are in the nominative and not in the vocative. If Thomas was directly addressing Jesus rather than speaking about Jesus than there would of been no definite articles in front of Lord and God and both words would of been spelled differently. Everywhere else in the New Testament when Jesus is directly addressed as Lord it is always in the Vocative case. This would be the only verse in the entire New Testament where Jesus would be addressed as Lord in the Nominative case.

Of course I didn't go into great detail here because I'm trying to make things as simple as possible, but if anyone else with knowledge of the Greek language have anything to add that will be greatly appreciated.

A few links for those who would to verify this information:

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/nouns1.htm

http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/grk101/linked_pages/grk101.grklanguage.html#cases?

http://faculty.fairfield.edu/rosivach/greekgrammar/noun-case.htm

http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/ch2/gram/masc_nouns.asp

114

Immortal Soul? Impossible!

by wannabe in

impossible!.

we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.

the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.

Blue Grass

You hear that Robdar? You're not really a Jew according to shit-for-brains Blue Grass. Why? Because he says so.

It's not because I say so but because that genological records were used to establish if someone was a Jew or not:

Ezekiel 13:9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel.

Nehemiah 7:63 And from among the priests: the descendants of Hobaiah, Hakkoz and Barzillai (a man who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by that name). 64 These searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.

Ezra 2:61 And from among the priests:The descendants of Hobaiah, Hakkoz and Barzillai (a man who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by that name).62These searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.

2 Chronicles 31: 16 In addition, they distributed to the males three years old or more whose names were in the genealogical records—all who would enter the temple of the LORD to perform the daily duties of their various tasks, according to their responsibilities and their divisions. 17 And they distributed to the priests enrolled by their families in the genealogical records and likewise to the Levites twenty years old or more, according to their responsibilities and their divisions. 18 They included all the little ones, the wives, and the sons and daughters of the whole community listed in these genealogical records. For they were faithful in consecrating themselves.

Also see Numbers 1:20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42; Exodus 6:16 & 19

31

Frustrated with JW Bible study!

by ElizabethTravers in

i am new 2 this forum.. i have been meeting up with 2 jw ladies on a weekly basis.

it has all been "polite".

today we covered a bit of the trinity.. i had read rhodes book on reasoning from the scriptures with jw's, but i found almost all my arguments that i used, in terms of every bible verse we went through (or i attempted to go through with them) went pear shape!

Blue Grass

Garyneal says "You see, in the Greek the text is definitive and is totally unanswerable." Completely false! As a matter of fact the opposite is true. The Greek text makes it clear that Thomas is not calling Jesus Lord or God in this verse. In greek that are 4 cases, two of which are the Nominative Case(talking about someone) and Vocative Case(talking to someone). When Thomas says "Lord" and "God" they both appear in the Nominative case which mean Thomas was talking about his Lord and God, not talking to them. Here's a link with a very simple explanation on the different cases in Greek: http://www.kypros.org/LearnGreek/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=61

114

Immortal Soul? Impossible!

by wannabe in

impossible!.

we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.

the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.

Blue Grass

Leolaia those are some horrible examples. Overlooking the fact that you just posted a bunch of isolated verses unrelated to each other, the verses you posted have nothing to say about an afterlife:

Judges 2:10 "After that whole generation had been gathered to their fathers, another generation grew up, who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel."

This verse is speaking of a burial not of a conscious afterlife. This is exactly what we saw with Jacob when he lived in Egypt.

Genesis 47: 28 Jacob lived in Egypt seventeen years, and the years of his life were a hundred and forty-seven. 29 When the time drew near for Israel to die, he called for his son Joseph and said to him, "If I have found favor in your eyes, put your hand under my thigh and promise that you will show me kindness and faithfulness. Do not bury me in Egypt, 30 but when I rest with my fathers, carry me out of Egypt and bury me where they are buried."

As you can see Judges is saying when one generation died off and was buried with their fathers. This same principle also applies to 1 Kings 2:10 11:43, 13:22, 14:31, and 15:8.

Psalm 30:2-3, 49:14-19, 22:28-29, and 86:13 are references to a resurrection which is very different from an afterlife.

Do the Jews of the Bible include the first-century Pharisees?

No it doesn't because Jesus makes it clear throughout the New Testament that the Jews of the first century beliefs were perverted and they didn't follow the teaches that have been passed down from Moses.